How a Government Shutdown Would Help Elon Musk

WIRED Senior Editor Leah Feiger joins Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond to explain why Elon Musk might actually want a government shutdown. Plus, WIRED’s Emily Mullin joins for an update on misinformation surrounding the latest measles outbreaks in the United States.

Articles mentioned in this episode: 
Elon Musk Has Wanted the Government Shutdown by Jake Lahut, Leah Feiger, and Vittoria Elliott
This Is How Measles Kills by Emily Mullin
The Worst 7 Years in Boeing’s History—and the Man Who Won’t Stop Fighting for Answers by Lauren Smiley

You can follow Katie Drummond on Bluesky at @katie-drummond, Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @leahfeiger, and Emily Mullin on Bluesky at @emilymullin. Write to us at uncannyvalley@wired.com.

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which may contain errors.

Katie Drummond: Welcome to WIRED’s Uncanny Valley. I’m WIRED’s Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond. Today on the show, why Elon Musk wants the government shutdown, and the state of measles in the United States. I’m joined today by WIRED’s Senior Editor Leah Feiger. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley, Leah.

Leah Feiger: Thank you so much for having me. Love to be back.

Katie Drummond: Now, Leah, you are back for a very good reason, which is that earlier today you and your team broke a fascinating and a very consequential story about the looming government shutdown, and why Elon Musk has actually wanted this shutdown to happen. Give us the latest. Walk us through this reporting.

Leah Feiger: There is a possible government shutdown that could occur as soon as Friday. Basically, Republicans right now in Congress are trying to force through a continuing resolution, a CR, that would extend government funding. It wouldn’t extend it forever; it would extend it to September. But buying Congress and Republicans and Trump a little bit more time. Trump has been giving some very full-throated encouragement to his party, I should say, to vote for this CR and to avoid a shutdown. Our reporting ran in direct contrast to that. That Trump’s arguably chief lieutenant right now and collaborator Elon Musk has actually been expressing a pretty serious desire for a government shutdown, even as Trump has been saying that he does not want one. Not only does Musk want a government shutdown, an aim that obviously, as I just said, runs totally contrary to Trump, but it’s partially because it would make it a lot easier to eliminate the jobs of hundreds of thousands of federal workers. Essentially, achieving what would be a permanent shutdown.

Katie Drummond: Explain what you actually mean by that. I guess walk us through what happens in the event of a government shutdown. These threats or the notion of a looming government shutdown, I feel like we hear about that all the time. I remember last year, hearing about it several times, that we’re on the verge of a government shutdown. It’s always averted. But what happens in the event that the US government shuts down? And why does that actually make it easier for Elon Musk, or DOGE, or anybody else who wants to lay off hundreds of thousands of federal workers, why does that make it easier for them to actually do that?

Leah Feiger: Absolutely. Let me know if you have any questions here.

Katie Drummond: Oh, I will.

Leah Feiger: Because so much of this is really thorny. But for the easy stuff that we are very confident about, a government shutdown is basically many federal government agencies and programs will essentially be put on ice. Employees get classified into essential or non-essential. Essential services usually include folks in Defense. FBI for example, they will still be working. But scientists, and workers in the SEC, and National Park Services. Pretty much most government functions that you, Katie, are sitting here thinking about-

Katie Drummond: Right.

Leah Feiger: … those are going to be on ice. Every single agency has its own shutdown plan. Even the White House gets hit. At least, it has in the past shutdowns. In 2018–2019 shutdown during Trump’s first term, something like 60 percent of staffers in the Executive Office of the President were actually furloughed.

Katie Drummond: Wow.

Leah Feiger: But yeah, don’t worry. It’s in the constitution that the president gets paid regardless. Just in case you were concerned.

Katie Drummond: All of these federal workers who are furloughed would be unpaid?

Leah Feiger: It depends on the kind of worker, but a lot of them won’t be paid until after the shutdown would end.

Katie Drummond: Got it.

Leah Feiger: It’s complicated. Obviously, we have gone through many government shutdowns before, but what you started getting at is this is incredibly different because on Elon Musk.

Katie Drummond: Right.

Leah Feiger: Because of DOGE, and because they have been responsible for the elimination of positions for tens of thousands of government workers already. Him talking about removing these non-essential workers before, many who are doing pretty critical tasks. If you are concerned about listeria in your deli meat, as I keep getting reminded by Mom, shout-out to Mom, this is a real thing. Those folks won’t be working. The way that this would happen is that once federal employees have been furloughed for more than 30 days … This would mean that if a government shutdown, A, happened, and B, this shutdown lasted longer than 30 days, than that furlough actually becomes subject to a RIF, a reduction in force. In our article that came out today, we talked with Nick Bednar, professor at the University of Minnesota School of Law, who is an absolute expert on this and was really helpful in walking through all this. This could be challenged, but this does mean that after 30 days, these furloughed government employees are automatically kicked into RIF procedures. Between that, and between so many serious functions of the government that’ll just not be happening in a shutdown, there’s a lot of leeway for Musk and his team to get rid of a lot of people.

Katie Drummond: By RIF, we’re talking about reduction in force essentially.

Leah Feiger: Yes, yes.

Katie Drummond: That’s a corporate term used to describe a layoff essentially.

Leah Feiger: Yeah.

Katie Drummond: Leah, it may be too premature to speculate beyond that, and obviously we’re getting into if this happens, and then if that happens, and then if that happens. But once we go into that post-30 day scenario, where federal workers who are furloughed are then subject to RIF procedures, what does that actually mean? Do these people have jobs again when the government reopens?

Leah Feiger: Well, that’s what’s a little bit tricky right now and I want to really stress is that all of the experts that we’re talking to are just like, “We haven’t seen this before.” There’s actually a lot of conflicting guidance, in a way. We know that this 30 day marker exists, and we know that this could happen if we hit the 30-day marker. It has not happened before, but because of the political situation as it is right now and the way that Musk has very, very candidly talked about reducing the federal government workforce, a lot of experts are really concerned that that’s the path that we’re going to go down.

Katie Drummond: Wow. That is stunning as a potential scenario.

Leah Feiger: Yeah. I want to be clear, again, this is hundreds of thousands of people.

Katie Drummond: Right.

Leah Feiger: I can’t really imagine what House and Senate Democrats are thinking right now.

Katie Drummond: Let’s back up for a second. We know that Elon Musk, from all of our reporting, has espoused this idea that maybe a government shutdown is a good idea, maybe we should go ahead and do this. What happens now? We’re talking on Tuesday, March 11th. We’re up against a deadline of Friday, March 14th. What should people be watching for over the next three days?

Leah Feiger: A couple of key things. House Republicans are going to vote today, so we’re going to find out if they have passed the CR, and if it goes from the House to the Senate. It’s very possible that it will. It’s also possible that it won’t. There are Republicans out there that are defying Trump’s request here and Johnson’s request here. This quote from Thomas Massey, a Republican Congressman, continues to kill me. He tweeted this over the weekend and I need to read this out loud because I honestly think about it maybe every 30 minutes. “Unless I get a lobotomy Monday that causes me to forget what I’ve witnessed the past 12 years, I’ll be a no on the CR this week.”

Katie Drummond: Wow.

Leah Feiger: Yeah! Trump is going after him pretty hard right now. He’s getting a lot of pressure from colleagues in the House. That’s the House stuff. We’re going to see what happens. Is he going to get convinced? Then once we head to the Senate, we need 60 votes. If it makes it to the Senate, Democrats, if they hold out, will be blamed for holding out.

Katie Drummond: Got it.

Leah Feiger: That’s already the language that is being discussed. Which, in my opinion, Republicans control the White House, they control the House, and they control the Senate, so I don’t know if that’s totally fair. But that is what’s percolating right now. Democrats, for the most part, have been very, very staunch about not supporting this CR. There’s a lot in there that they don’t agree with. And maybe most importantly, they want more oversight for Musk and DOGE. In order to just fully, full-heartedly support a CR like this, a lot of them have implied feels like a little bit of a given.

Katie Drummond: There is this very bizarre potential scenario, potential scenario on the horizon. Just to be clear, this is speculative. That Democrats hold out on voting for this CR because they object to so much of what’s in it, because they want more oversight of Musk and DOGE, and in so doing, they essentially give Elon Musk exactly what he has been asking for.

Leah Feiger: Yeah. Yes.

Katie Drummond: Leah, always a good time having you on. Thank you so much for joining me on Uncanny Valley today.

Leah Feiger: Thank you so much for having me, Katie.

Katie Drummond: All right, we’re going to take a short break. When we come back, we’ll hear from WIRED’s Emily Mullin about the measles. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. I’m joined now by WIRED’s Emily Mullin. Emily, welcome to Uncanny Valley.

Emily Mullin: Thanks for having me, Katie.

Katie Drummond: Emily, there’s been a lot happening in this country this year. Among other things though, and I think important for us to highlight here and on WIRED as you’ve been doing with your reporting, are outbreaks of measles. Along with those outbreaks, we are seeing a lot of misinformation, bad health advice, bad recommendations circulating about the illness. Can you start by just level set with all of us, give us the deal, what is going on with measles in the United States right now?

Emily Mullin: Right. There’s a growing measles outbreak along the Texas-New Mexico border that has so far resulted in more than 250 cases and two deaths. One of them in a child, and the other in an adult. Both were unvaccinated. A few dozen people in Texas and one person in New Mexico have been hospitalized. Just for comparison, last year, in 2024, 285 people in the US came down with measles and that was for the whole year.

Katie Drummond: Wow.

Emily Mullin: Forty percent of those required hospitalization. In Texas, most of those cases are in Gaines County, where 222 people have come down with the virus. The outbreak has now spread to a neighboring county in New Mexico, where there are 33 cases. But those numbers could likely be higher once this podcast airs. The vast majority of those cases, again, are in unvaccinated individuals.

Katie Drummond: You published a story on WIRED.com earlier today, it’s a great piece with a terrifying headline, This Is How Measles Kills. Tell us a little bit about this virus and how it effects the human body.

Emily Mullin: Yeah. Well, we felt the need to write this story because we’re seeing a lot of misinformation on social media coming from conservative and anti-vaccine accounts that are really downplaying the severity of the virus and promoting false claims, such as the child in Texas died of other causes. We wanted to be very clear in this story about the dangers of measles and this is not just a rash. Everybody thinks of the characteristic rash that comes along with measles, and that actually usually comes after the first signs, which is usually a fever, runny nose, that kind of thing. It can often resemble the flu. One of the reasons why measles is so dangerous is that it can induce something called immune amnesia. The measles virus kills these very important cells in the body that remember prior infections, they help fight future infections. Without these cells, it can really leave people vulnerable to other infections for several weeks and months to come. Two of the very severe complications of measles are pneumonia and encephalitis, which is a swelling of the brain. Both of those conditions can both lead to death.

Katie Drummond: Terrifying. Speaking of terrifying, you talked a little bit about the misinformation, the bad, dangerous health advice circulating out there. This feels like the right moment to bring up Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Secretary of Health and Human Services for the United States government, is one of the most high-profile proponents of some of that misinformation. As you reported, he has described cod liver oil as showing, quote, “Very, very good results in measles patients,” among other statements he’s made. He’s also been very noncommittal in terms of emphasizing the importance of vaccination to prevent measles outbreaks like exactly the one that we are seeing right now in Texas. Talk to us a little bit more about RFK Jr. and how he has contributed to this massive surge in misinformation around measles.

Emily Mullin: Yeah. Kennedy, in Trump’s first cabinet meeting, when asked by a reporter about the measles outbreak, he said that measles outbreaks in the US are not that unusual. Which is true, but this outbreak in particular is unusual because we have seen these two deaths. I should point out the child in Texas who died was the first that we’ve seen in 10 years.

Katie Drummond: Wow.

Emily Mullin: The first death from measles we’ve seen in 10 years. The Health Department in Texas confirmed that this child had no underlying conditions. We don’t know what the complications were. But Kennedy wrote an op-ed for Fox News in which he encouraged parents to talk to their pediatricians about the MMR vaccine and said that this is a personal choice. But he didn’t really come out and encourage vaccination. I think a lot of health experts were disappointed in that op-ed because it was really an opportunity for reach an audience that could be receptive to this message at a time when we are seeing this big measles outbreak. And yes, he’s also made references to cod liver oil. That is because cod liver oil is high in vitamin A. Vitamin A is often given to children who are hospitalized with measles because there’s some research showing that the measles virus can deplete levels of vitamin A in the body. It is recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics and the World Health Organization to give to children who are sick with measles. But there’s really no research around cod liver oil, and also cod liver oil supplements depending on the type of supplement or the brand of supplement, can actually have more vitamin A in it than is recommended for the daily dose. If you give a child too much of vitamin A or cod liver oil, they can get really sick. This is something that health experts, pediatricians are really not recommending that people give to their children right now for measles. It does not prevent measles in any way. It certainly cannot cure measles. It has no antiviral properties. There is no antiviral treatment available for measles. The only effective way to prevent measles is the measles, mumps, and rubella, or MMR vaccine.

Katie Drummond: Got it. Wow. We’re in the midst of this outbreak that we talked about at the top. What happens now? Once a measles outbreak is out there, is spreading among a community, how do you contain something like that? What next steps would be necessary for the United States to actually get this outbreak under control?

Emily Mullin: Yeah. Well, this is a great question. We have seen measles outbreaks before. You might remember that there was a large outbreak of measles back in 2019 that was concentrated in the Orthodox Jewish communities in New York. It really took this strategic boots on the ground effort of going into the community, combating misinformation, providing culturally sensitive information about the benefits of the MMR vaccine to get rates up there. Because again, there’s no effective treatment for measles. This takes isolation, vaccination because to be clear, we’re seeing these measles happening because of declining vaccination rates nationwide. People are not trusting of vaccines right now. For measles, the vaccination rate in a community needs to be very high, 95 percent, to prevent outbreaks because it is so contagious. In Gaines County, Texas, which has the majority of cases right now, the kindergarten measles vaccination rate is 82 percent.

Katie Drummond: Wow.

Emily Mullin: That is why we’re seeing such a heavy concentration of cases there. But in New Mexico, in Lee County where most of the New Mexico cases are happening, measles vaccination rates are quite higher, around 94 percent. But again, this is a very contagious virus. We really need those rates up to around 95 percent. That’s what epidemiologists say is really needed for protection a community.

Katie Drummond: Just to underscore this one last time. The MMR vaccine, how effective is that vaccine at preventing measles in a given person?

Emily Mullin: One dose of the vaccine is 93 percent effective against measles, and two doses is 97 percent effective. That first dose is recommended for children usually around ages 12 to 15 months. Then that second dose is typically given when a child is between four and six-years-old.

Katie Drummond: Got it. We’re also, again, just talking about the most vulnerable people in a community, babies, young children, in terms of risk for contracting measles. Certainly seems like vaccines are a better option than cod liver oil, if I may say so. We’re going to take a short break. Thank you, Emily. When we come back, what you need to read on WIRED today. Welcome back to Uncanny Valley. I’m Katie Drummond, WIRED’s global editorial director. I’m joined by WIRED’s Emily Mullin. Now, Emily, before I let you go, I actually want to pitch you and our listeners on a story that everybody should read on WIRED.com today, other than the excellent stories we mentioned in this episode. That is a feature that we published today by WIRED Contributor Lauren Smiley. Lauren is an incredible journalist, an incredible narrative writer. She did a deep-dive into Boeing. If you are not already terrified of air travel given everything going on with the FAA right now and everything that has gone on with Boeing in the last several years, this story won’t make you feel better. I say that as someone who takes a lot of Xanax before I get on a flight. This story will make you feel more nervous about the safety of air travel. But it is this riveting narrative told through the eyes of a man who actually worked at Boeing for many years, had a lot of concerns about safety within Boeing manufacturing facilities, safety of the aircrafts, and frequently sounded the alarm inside the company. Until he ultimately left the company, and only then started to see terrible plane crashes, serious incidents with Boeing aircrafts that he had been in part responsible for actually manufacturing and creating. It’s all about his journey as a whistleblower, and how he has since leaving Boeing and becoming a whistleblower, he has actually become this focal point for the families of people who lost their lives in Boeing plane crashes. He has become a focal point for other whistleblowers who have come forward with damaging information about what’s going on inside the company. It really is the story of one man, his name is Ed Pierson, and his mission that continues through to today to reveal what he describes as serious missteps and misdeeds on the part of Boeing that affect all of our safety when we get into an aircraft. It’s an incredible story. Again, it will not make you feel good, but it is a very, very good read. I strongly recommend everybody giving it a look. Emily, I think you actually said that you had read this story earlier today, so I suspect you agree with me.

Emily Mullin: Yes. I didn’t want to fly before reading this story, and I don’t want to fly now.

Katie Drummond: That is totally fair, I could not agree more. But it’s one of those stories that you are better off and more well-informed, and have a richer picture of Boeing and all of the people surrounding it, including this whistleblower, after you read it. Again, it’s not going to make you feel great, but it’s an important piece of journalism. Much credit to Lauren for all of the digging and reporting that she did to bring this story to life for WIRED. Emily, thank you so much for joining me today.

Emily Mullin: Thanks for having me.

Katie Drummond: All right, that’s our show for today. We will link to all the stories we talked about today in the show notes. Make sure to check out Thursday’s episode of Uncanny Valley, where we look at the state and future of self-driving cars. If you like what you heard today, make sure to follow our show and rate it on your podcast app of choice. If you’d like to get in touch with any of us for questions, comments, or show suggestions, write to us at uncannyvalley@WIRED.com. This episode was edited by Kyana Moghadam. Amar Lal at Macro Sound mixed this episode. Jake Lummus is our studio engineer. Jordan Bell is our executive producer. Conde Nast’s head of global audio is Chris Bannon. I’m Katie Drummond, WIRED’s global editorial director. Goodbye.